00:00:00:03 - 00:00:04:22 [Patty Kinnersly] Good morning everyone, or good afternoon, depending on where you are. Welcome to today's webinar on Transcending stereotypes: reporting to prevent violence against trans and gender diverse people and communities. I'm Patty Kinnersly, I'm the CEO of Our Watch, and I'll start today's proceedings with an acknowledgment of the lands, the Traditional Owners of the lands we're on right across this country. I'm coming to you today from the lands of the Dja Dja Wurrung people in the Central Highlands of Victoria. I pay my respects to Elders, past and present, and particularly to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people here with us today. For today's webinar, I also want to particularly recognise and acknowledge women and girls who have experienced violence, and any trans and gender diverse people joining us today, and we acknowledge the disproportionate rates of violence against your community. I'm going to start with some general housekeeping before I introduce Dr Anna Cody, who is delivering some opening remarks, and, along with Kate Doak, who's going to moderate the session for us today. This webinar is being recorded, but only myself and other people on screen will have their cameras on and be recorded. If you have any access concerns or difficulties. Rebekah from Our Watch will be available to address those in the chat. And we have a number of accessibility features built into the event today, including live captions. If you wish to access these, please select the Closed Caption button in the Zoom menu on your device. If you have any questions or require any assistance, please use the chat function and send a message to the team.

00:01:36:13 - 00:02:08:16 [Patty Kinnersly] Today we will be discussing violence against trans and gender diverse people and communities, and we know that that can be distressing. If you need to reach out for some support, we will put some numbers in the chat line, but also for your information, we'll share those with you now. If you are someone or you know someone who is impacted by sexual assault, domestic violence or family violence, you can call 1800RESPECT on 1800 737 732. Alternatively, you can use the webchat, which is available 24 hours a day at www.chat.1800RESPECT.org.au, or connect with their new on-demand video counselling service. Qlife provides support to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex people on 1800 184 527. And if you are a man who's concerned about your thoughts or attitudes or behaviours, you can reach out to Men’s Referral Service on 1300 766 491. We'll see how we go for time today, but if you have questions, please type them into the chat box. These will only be seen by Our Watch and we will pass them on to the moderator. And we will endeavour to answer as many of those as we can today. For those of you who are new to Our Watch, we're the national leader in primary prevention of violence against women in Australia.

00:03:08:04 - 00:03:42:01 [Patty Kinnersly] Primary prevention means stopping violence before it starts by addressing its underlying drivers. Our Watch is engaged in work to prevent violence against trans and gender diverse people because there are significant overlaps in the drivers of violence against women and the drivers of violence against LGBTQIA+ people, including trans and gender diverse people. These drivers include gender inequality and rigid adherence to gender stereotypes, and there is also significant overlap in the work to do to prevent that violence against women and violence against trans and gender diverse communities. We're excited also that we've just announced our partnership with Rainbow Health Australia, which will see us working together to develop a new national framework for the prevention of violence against LGBTQIA+ people. But today, we’re here focusing on the work we do with journalists and media professionals to support them to understand the issues and deepen their approach to reporting on violence against women and diverse communities, with a range of tailor-made resources and activities. At this webinar, we are launching new guidelines for media professionals on reporting on violence against trans women and gender diverse people. These guidelines are the latest in a series of resources and professional development opportunities we've developed for journalists that cover prevention of violence against women from a range of diverse communities, including Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women, women and girls with disabilities, and women from refugee and migrant backgrounds.

00:04:49:05 - 00:05:27:20 [Patty Kinnersly] The guidelines, created in consultation with leading trans organisations, respects lived experience and draws on established evidence bases. We'd like to acknowledge the significant contributions and invaluable insights provided by Transgender Victoria, The Trans Justice Project, Zoe Belle Gender Collective, Black Rainbow, ACON and Rainbow Health Australia. Our Watch absolutely recognises that work to tackle violence against trans and gender diverse people and communities should be led by trans and gender diverse people and communities, drawing on their deep knowledge and experience. And it is our privilege to walk alongside you in this work. We hope that these guidelines and today's webinar will assist journalists and media professionals in reporting on violence against trans community in a respectful, fair and accurate way. These guidelines are needed to reduce misinformation and create an evidence-based guide that journalists can go to when they're writing about violence perpetrated against trans and gender diverse people.

00:06:00:04 - 00:06:14:16 [Patty Kinnersly] With that information and introduction, I'd now like to welcome our moderator for today's webinar, Kate Doak. Kate's pronouns are she/her. She's an Investigative Journalist and a Digital Sports Producer for Ten News First and Ten Sport. Based in Sydney, Kate has covered everything from federal politics and royal commissions through to the Matildas and the Socceroos. Since transitioning over a decade ago, Kate has been an out and proud member of the LGBTIQ+ community within Australia and around the world, living by the motto, if you can see it, you can be it. She is currently the Chair of Paramount Proud ANZ, which is Ten and Paramount's LGBTQIA+ employee resource group. Before I hand you over to Kate, I'm also delighted to announce that Dr Anna Cody will be delivering today's opening remarks. Dr Cody's pronouns are she/her. Dr Cody started as Australia's Sex Discrimination Commissioner in September last year. Before this, Dr Cody had a distinguished career as an academic and as a lawyer specialising in discrimination, and always is a passionate advocate for human rights. Dr Cody was previously the Dean of the School of Law and Professor at Western Sydney University for four and a half years, leading education and research impact within the school to better reflect the diversity of the community and the intersection of law and justice. Dr Cody has a PhD in Law from NSW, awarded with excellence and a Master's of Law from Harvard University, and a Bachelor of Arts and Law from the University of New South Wales. It gives me great pleasure to hand over to Australia's Federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner, Dr Anna Cody. Thank you.

00:07:56:16 - 00:08:21:20 [Dr Anna Cody] Thanks very much, Patty. Thank you very much for that warm introduction, and it's a pleasure to join you all today. I'd also like to begin by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, on whose land I join you from today. And I pay my respects to Elders, past and present, and also any First Nations people who are joining us today. It is my pleasure to join you for the launch of the Guide for media reporting on violence against transgender and gender diverse communities. As highlighted in the guide, gender inequality is a key driver of violence against trans and gender diverse people, and this includes because of the rigidity of gender norms and stereotypes that exist within our society and the messaging that people must conform to heteronormativity and cisnormativity. A key part of my role as Sex Discrimination Commissioner is to work towards equality within our society for women and LGBTQIA+ communities. Obviously, there's overlaps in those groups. Trans and gender diverse people contribute hugely to our society through their work in hospitals, journalism, education, sports and the arts. And we also know that trans and gender diverse people experience increased rates of violence, with the rise of harassment and violence against transgender communities, particularly concerning over the last few years. This week, I've been sitting in court, the Federal Court, for the matter of Tickle and Giggle.

00:09:22:12 - 00:09:58:02 [Dr Anna Cody] And this was about Roxanne Tickle, who was refused access to a social networking group called Giggle, designed or described as being made for women by women. Ms Tickle alleges that she was refused access because she's a trans woman, and that this amounts to discrimination on the ground of her gender identity. It's the first time that an allegation of gender identity discrimination is being heard by the Federal Court since the 2013 amendments to the Sex Discrimination Act, and I've been involved in the matter as amicus curiae or as a friend to the court to help the court understand and interpret the act. Commentary that has occurred around this case only serves to reinforce why this guide is so important. In reporting on trans and gender diverse people, the guide encourages, among other things, avoiding placing unnecessary focus on someone's gender or mentioning their transgender experience, if it's not relevant to the story. Where legally possible, linking research to stories to demonstrate the prevalence of violence against these communities, making sure that it's accurate and equitable representation of transgender community, and being mindful of reporting on topics that contribute to negative public attitudes and drive further violence against the community, and not reproducing stereotypes and unhelpful tropes about transgender people.

00:10:47:20 - 00:11:15:18 [Dr Anna Cody] As highlighted in the guide, there are a number of Commonwealth and state laws that make it unlawful to discriminate against a person because of their gender. Publishing content that harasses, intimidates, or incites violence against LGBTQIA+ people can result in penalties under the law. And there's a lot of misunderstanding and misreporting when it comes to the purpose of anti-discrimination laws and how they work. At its core, discrimination law addresses the underlying inequalities within our society and which impact on individuals. In Australia, discrimination laws are one of the key planks for achieving equality within our society, and it's essential when reporting on these cases or these matters that it's appropriately and accurately understood. Gender equality means equal treatment of all genders, including trans people. When we recognise trans rights, we recognise the worth and dignity of every person and reject the harmful stigmas and stereotypes that lead to discrimination. The guide notes the powerful role that the media has to play, and it has the ability to challenge harmful attitudes and beliefs, as well as accurately and respectfully reporting on the experiences of trans and gender diverse communities. And they can do this with supportive messaging. I look forward to seeing this guide put into practice, and the change that we’ll hopefully see in the media landscape on reporting of these issues and how that carries through into our communities. We all want a society in which we are accurately informed, able to discuss and debate issues respectfully and clearly, and in which all, including trans people, are valued and included. It makes our society stronger and richer. Thank you.

00:12:50:24 - 00:12:54:11 [Kate Doak] Well, hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. As a part of Our Watch’s launch of the Guide for media reporting on violence against transgender and gender diverse communities. My name is Kate Doak. I'm a journalist and sports producer. I'm based in Sydney, and I have been working in this area in different capacities for the past about ten or so years now. With us today, we've got a phenomenal panel of people with lived experience, who, have like led some truly amazing lives. Firstly, we will go to Professor Sandy O'Sullivan. Professor Sandy O'Sullivan is a Wiradjuri transgender/non-binary person and a Professor in the Department of Critical Indigenous Studies at Macquarie University. They use they/them pronouns. They lead the Intimacies node at the Centre of Global Indigenous Futures. They write about the colonial project of gender and received a large government-funded project called Saving Lives: Mapping the Influence of Indigenous LGBTIQ+ Creative Artists.It connects up cultural practice and wellbeing. They're currently writing a book called No Cessation: The Colonial Project of Gender. Welcome, Professor O'Sullivan.

00:14:54:11 - 00:14:55:11 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] Thanks, Kate.

00:14:55:11 - 00:15:11:11 [Kate Doak] Next up we have Jackie Turner. Jackie Turner is a Director of the Trans Justice Project, a trans community-led and run social advocacy, justice and education focused organisation which is one of the first of its kind in Australia. Based in Sydney, Jackie has worked for over a decade as a community organiser and campaigner, having led national mobilisations and campaigns with entities such as the Tomorrow Movement and Equality Australia, amongst others. When she isn't writing, tweeting or campaigning, some of Jackie's favourite pastimes include cooking, playing in her punk rock band Final Girls and spending time with her wife. Hello, Jackie.

00:15:13:19 - 00:15:25:00 [Jackie Turner] Hello. Thanks so much for having me.

00:15:25:00 - 00:15:32:23 [Kate Doak] And we have also got Jackson Fairchild. Jackson Fairchild is a family violence primary prevention leader, as well as a qualified counsellor and clinical supervisor. Jackson has held senior practice roles at Rainbow Health Australia, Thorne Harbour Health and No to Violence, and they are currently working with the Zoe Belle Gender Collective on prevention of cis men's violence against trans women, and as a sector consultant. So we'll go directly into the, the purpose of the guidelines and some of the shared drivers in relation to it. So Jackson, Our Watch’s guidelines refer to the shared drivers of violence of both trans and gender diverse people and also violence against women. Firstly, what are shared drivers and why are they important?

00:16:15:19 - 00:16:38:01 [Jackson Fairchild] Thanks so much and thanks for the great introduction. It's really exciting to be here. So this work builds on a lot of amazing work that's been done to improve media reporting of violence against women. And, you know, we know from Change the Story that violence against women is driven by a range of factors. Talk about rigid gender stereotypes and norms, and dominant forms of masculinity. And globally, we know that violence against women, is higher in areas where there's a rigid distinction between the roles of men and women and where rigid masculinity is at the top. And this idea of masculinity, it's inherently heterosexual and cisgender, so to put it more simply, transphobia, homophobia, misogyny are all different facets of the same thing. When we talk about rigid gender stereotypes, the rigidity is that idea that there's only a particular way to be a man and to be a woman, there’s a right way, it's a socially legitimised way. And that, that's what we mean by cisnormativity that the only, quote unquote normal and I use that word very hesitantly, way to be is, is to be cisgender, and heteronormativity refers to that sort of expectation of heterosexuality. And that leads to systemic transphobia throughout our society and to inequality, to, a range of different forms of abuse, violence and discrimination,

00:17:43:04 - 00:18:07:12 [Jackson Fairchild] which is, you know, why we need these, these guidelines. But when I think about this, and I say this a lot in a lot of different spaces, when we talk about a common problem, that to me suggests a really common solution. Recently, we've seen more collaborations and partnerships between trans and gender diverse LGBTIQ-led organisations and organisations like Our Watch that work to end violence against women. And the problem we're trying to solve is huge. It's widespread and it's entrenched, and we really need to work together to create that lasting change. And I'm really excited to be here because that, that's this shared piece of work that we all need to do, needs to be something that is done in partnership and in collaboration, so that we can achieve a future where everyone in society can live lives of respect and love free from violence.

00:18:38:24 - 00:19:21:04 [Kate Doak] When it comes to violence, what are some of the, the definitions of violence?

00:19:21:04 - 00:19:21:04 [Jackson Fairchild] Yeah, great. We know from the research, like Private Lives and Writing Themselves In, two important Australian studies that I encourage the audience to familiarise themselves, if you haven't seen them already. We know that trans and gender diverse people experience a whole range of different forms of abuse and violence, often in the context of intimate partner relationships that, we're talking about the same sorts of coercion and control that you see in any family violence scenario. But there are particular... So, you know, we talk about financial abuse, control of who people see, emotional abuse, humiliation, degradation and that kind of, all the way up to physical violence and threats on people's life and safety in a really, you know, which is unfortunately very common. But we also know that for trans and gender diverse people it can look like control over their gender autonomy and their permission and right to be who they are. Controlling how they dress, their access to medically affirming care. This is particularly a concern at the moment for young people. It can involve violence from our families of origin, from our parents, from our siblings, and extended family, from our cultural community. And it can involve violence from strangers, you know, gendered violence against trans and gender diverse people, particularly trans women and trans feminine people, and particularly, trans women of colour, and First Nations trans women. Around the world, the rates of violence and death are unfortunately appallingly high. And we know that, there’s particular ways of understanding that. We can, one of the words we use at Zoe Belle a lot is around this idea of transmisogyny, that particularly trans women are used as a, well all trans people and gender diverse people are targeted by transphobia. Trans women are often the, the, straw person that are used to sort of target that hatred and that violence. And it has been particularly targeted against trans women and against trans and gender diverse young people in recent years.

00:21:03:20 - 00:21:35:22 [Kate Doak] Okay. Sandy and Jackson, given your research, in this area, what are some of the different ways that trans people can experience violence that might not be obvious to other people at first? Can it vary depending on whether someone identifies as trans masculine, trans feminine, non-binary or gender fluid? And can other lived experiences also come into play?

00:21:42:08 - 00:22:18:15 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] Oh, look, obviously all of this is really crucial. This guide starts to map some of this out, you know, and it maps it out by providing some guidelines for, for the, the media, for journos in particular, who are not necessarily across this, but some may be, and some may have lived experience. I think when we talk about complexity of identity, I'm reminded that there's a few issues around what information is available to us at the moment. I mean, the lived experience of it is that trans and gender diverse people around the world are absolutely affected by violence at levels that others are not. And this needs to be recognised, but it's largely not. And journalism has a really big role to play in that, which is why this guide’s so important. Me and my colleagues cowrote a national report last year on online safety of diverse journalists. It was a report that was prepared with Media Diversity Australia. And it, it slightly dealt with this, two trans people writing it, because it was so hard to get journalists to talk about this as an issue. And also there were very few trans journalists, you know, so obviously they were being heavily targeted and Aboriginal trans journalists were so targeted that they would not be a part of it. That's an example of where you're not hearing a voice. But I think there's other issues. You know, we've got a guide to writing and speaking about Indigenous people in Australia and you know, it serves that function of people going, I don't know how to write about youse. And it's, of course in there we've got information about trans Indigenous people.

00:23:33:23 - 00:23:52:24 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] Because why wouldn't we? Why wouldn't we be including that in something that talks about how you're writing about people? And we need to do this more. So, while we need to have these kinds of targeted ones, we need to have more than that. Now, I realise I'm redirecting the question, but it's still largely answering this issue about who's voice is there. You know, Sistergirl and Brotherboy are really good examples that are highlighted in this. They're not the only terms to describe Indigenous trans people and our evidence shows that more people use other terms, more Indigenous people use other terms. So, using them as though they capture all Indigenous trans people is nonsense. But it's done by the media all the time. It’s frankly done by a lot of community organisations as well. So the same issue that Indigenous people across North America have with the term two-spirit, our own communities sometimes have their own descriptors. Ask us, but ask us more broadly, you know. And also this, this kind of idea that we're used as a proof of concept, as though our communities will all support us or all attack us, you know, so there's this idea that we've been here forever. We belong in the past, we’re a history and so we’re proof and a lot of journalists, a lot of people in the media will use that as a kind of anchor point. I think there are, you know, some very specific issues around how Indigenous people, but also complexity of identity, is not being mentioned in these spaces.

00:25:01:06 - 00:25:26:00 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] And a lot of its fear based by journalists as well as by a lot of trans organisations. How many reports have come out in the last few years that literally do not talk about incarcerated or previously incarcerated trans people? And, and also that just avoid it because they're worried that this becomes a site for talking about the idea of bad actors in that space. And the way that people are described is spectacularly wrong. And yet we've got the work of Sisters Inside, Beyond Bricks and Bars for supporting incarcerated and previously incarcerated people. But a whole lot of the research that's done doesn't do that. Probably fundamentally, one of the biggest issues we've got with understanding the complexity of our identity and the impact that violence has, anti-trans, any kind of disinformation and misinformation is that we do not have statistics. Anybody who gives you a statistic on trans people, let alone a breakdown on Indigenous trans people, is lying. We don't have it, we have no sense of how many trans people there are in so-called Australia. No idea. Because, and point to where and who should be doing that. Not any of us and not any of our organisations. The ABS should be doing it. And so journalists need to understand that, they need that context. So they're not coming to us for questions about the statistics, for information about how to write about people. If they could just have something that acts as a, as a touchstone for that and then move into, you know, more complex questions about individuals and not use individuals to recast the idea of the whole of community. Because the whole of community is not being featured.

00:26:54:04 - 00:27:24:16 [Kate Doak] And, and going on from there. Jackson, what were your thoughts in relation to, to the importance of language as well?

00:27:24:18 - 00:28:00:09 [Jackson Fairchild] Yeah, absolutely. I really echo, I wanna, sort of, plus one what Sandy said about, you know, the difficulty on speaking to experiences when we don't have the data and when there's been a real sort of silence and erasure of particular communities and experiences, in particular generalisations being made. So I'll keep my answer to the, the work that we've been doing at Zoe Belle Gender Collective around talking to trans women about their relationships with cisgender men. And we've been hearing a lot about particular forms, particular words that have been coming up around objectification and fetishisation and people feeling, particular forms of, sort of the ways in which trans misogyny affects men's violence against trans women and trans feminine people and the way that that looks differently for different communities. And one of the things we've learned through that is that with the, we've done this project on an extraordinarily small amount of money. And, what we've, what we've learned is that there's a lot more to learn and that there's actually a lot of gaps in what we know. We can see broad trends, we can see similar themes, we can see that that's those terms are issues that cover an enormous community of people. But how it affects particular groups, how it affects First Nations trans people, how it affects migrant and refugee communities and people of colour all over the world, how it affects people of different ages. It's, it's very complex. And a lot needs to be done to help us understand that. We're starting to get data and voices, but it's so important that journalists go to the groups in question and ask for them to speak about it and to use that language and to use those terms, so that people can see themselves within that work. I think it's a core part of modelling respect and a way of ensuring that we're not continuing to erase and ignore these experiences.

00:29:10:01 - 00:29:51:01 [Kate Doak] Preceding on from there,and this is a question to the entire group, just how, just how much can seeing themselves authentically represented in both the media and broader public alike help LGBTIQ+ youth, particularly for those who are members of multiple minority groups? Can it help reduce their risk of experiencing violence, and if so, how?

00:29:51:03 - 00:30:16:18 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] Can I, can I answer that just with one of the projects that we're doing at the moment? We've been working with parents of gender diverse kids to develop a range of resources for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander parents and caregivers for supporting kids. And we got a lot of worries. And it intersected with this other project that we're doing, that is on looking at queer representation on TV. And we got a response to just this question that we didn't expect, that we absolutely didn't anticipate. I assumed it would be, it's wonderful to see yourself represented. That's great. What we overwhelmingly got was the fear of it, was the fear that people like themselves would be represented and that they would be stereotypes, that they'd have to deal with school the next day, that they had to deal with the workplace the next day. That this was something that they were fearful of. And I think this is, again, the message to the media, to journalists, in particular, who are shaping some of these stories is that that fear has to be about, you know, a kind of normalisation or a connection when you don't see enough stories. And we know this as Aboriginal people, if you don't see enough stories of complexity of identity, then actually what happens is it becomes a stereotype. And so this is the risk. So, we got the messages. We also got messages that people wanted to see more trans and gender diverse people, that they absolutely did, but also that they were nervous and worried about it.

00:31:18:04 - 00:31:40:12 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] There are, it's okay to have both of those things happening, but it's also important for us to recognise it and that it is about like just the sheer volume, so that it doesn't become exceptions, so that it doesn't become, I mean, we are, like, we're here speaking on this because we're exceptions, right? But we have to know that, we have to know that we're not, you know, we don't have lived experience. Yeah, okay, we do. But also really, I mean, I'm 58 years old, you know, I don't represent a 15 year old Aboriginal kid. And we have to know that in all of the work that we're doing, and journalists need to understand that as well, that there are implications for how people live their lives. And, you know, this whole notion of the sort of anti-trans sentiment that's being stirred up is pointing to some of, to some of this. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be looking at, you know, all people and telling all stories, but it does mean that we need to have an understanding that this is not the trans story or the Aboriginal trans story.

00:32:29:08 - 00:33:01:01 [Kate Doak] Okay. And, Jackie, would you like to, to contribute to this particular question?

00:33:01:01 - 00:33:36:15 [Jackie Turner] Yeah, sure. I, yeah, I think that diversity of stories is really important because there's an agenda right now that, you know, is pushing to, give a straw person of what it means to be trans or gender diverse. And, you know, the amount of stereotypes that come along with that, are a vehicle for, you know, dehumanisation, right, in the media and, or a gateway to deny us access to care and human rights. So, I think sharing from my own personal experience, the only trans women that I saw growing up were people who often victims on crime shows, or who were largely exceptions to the rules, you know, people like Caitlyn Jenner, and, yeah, you know, wealthy people who were able to transition in the public light and be treated as sort of a glamorous spectacle by the media. And so it really only gave you two pathways to look at what it means to be a trans person in society. And, I think that this, we know that this affects how soon people come to terms with their own identity, the kinds of journeys that they take to explore their identity as well, and, that affects people's lives and outlook on life. So, you know, I didn't offer my own gender until very late in my 20s. And I think it's a big part of because I didn't have these kinds of representation on television, in shows that were pointing back to me that, the person I was was something that could be embraced by society, by my family, by my friends and workplace.

00:34:22:07 - 00:34:46:18 [Jackie Turner] And that I would be, you know, feel safe doing that. So I think it's incredibly important that we’re making space for different kinds of stories, but also understanding the intersections of people's identities as well. Like, you know, we don't, just in a really simple way, we don't often see portrayals of trans lesbians until recently. And there's been a stereotype about trans women as wanting to date men. That's a, that's a sort of previous stereotype that has existed, and it carries on today. And so, it's one of the interesting things about how my perspectives on feminism and misogyny have changed since coming out is that I notice how much femininity now serves as an invitation to men in, in many cases. Not that, that it is, in itself an invitation, but that very much, certain kinds of men take that as an invitation to make comments, jump into my DMs on Instagram, in ways that never happened pre-transition. And I think that this has come about because of the cultural narratives that we've had about trans people as, you know, previously being basically sexually available, in many ways, and that, people transitioned to gain male attention and it results in a, in a, cultural understanding that, that, that trans women exist for essentially male entertainment and pleasure. So, all of that to say, I think, the diversity of stories and actually humanising people's experiences and also just, the things that exist outside of people's own gender experiences, their expertise, their lives, interests, these are all relevant stories that can be shared as well.

00:36:19:19 - 00:36:41:03 Unknown [Kate Doak] Going on from there, Jackie, as a social campaigner, you've had a lot of experience dealing with disinformation and the influence it can have on the lives of people within different minority communities. Can you describe what disinformation means in relation to the transgender community and what influence it can have on their everyday lives and those that are close to them?

00:36:41:05 - 00:37:03:11 [Jackie Turner] Yeah, definitely. So I spent the last maybe like 2 or 3 years getting to grips with antitrans disinformation and the specific beast it is. So, for those who might not be aware of the terminology, basically misinformation is information that is shared that is incorrect, but it might not intentionally be incorrect. So it might be a wrong facts or something like that that gets shared more widely. And so people have a false understanding about an event, a fact, why something happened. Whereas disinformation is information that is specifically made to mislead the public or to misrepresent a situation or fact. So what we're seeing at the moment is not misinformation about trans people, although that does exist. We're seeing specifically disinformation. So there are a number of organisations that have emerged over the last 3 to 4 years that exist specifically to produce and promote anti-trans disinformation and are linked up with a number of, you know, organisation across different countries that, you know, basically spend their time figuring out how to undermine our rights and care. So, this is a playbook that we see from the far right. We saw this in the early 2000s with climate change. What right wing think tanks like the Heritage Foundation did was funnel millions of dollars into climate deniers, people who were profiting from geoengineering theories. Basically, the kinds of bunk scientists that we've had to deal with for the 20 years since. They did that to basically murky, darken,

00:38:21:14 - 00:38:45:21 [Jackie Turner] what's the term I'm looking for? Muddy the waters around the science of climate change. We are now seeing the exact same thing happening around trans healthcare and trans lives. They, we know that there are millions of dollars that have gone into organisations that produce disinformation. And we've just seen another big report come out in the last day or two that we know has been influenced by some of these organisations. And it's really important that people develop some literacy around the specific tropes and the specific themes that we see in this disinformation, because they're not easy lies to spot. They are highly sophisticated organisations, and highly sophisticated, you know, legitimate looking studies that have no scientific basis. So the kinds of, disinformation we see, I won't repeat the exact kinds of things, but I imagine that a bunch is coming to your minds if you've been engaged with what's happening in the trans community at the moment, but there's a lot of stuff around, you know, social media making people trans. There's ideas around, you know, how many more trans people are coming out and living their lives happily? And isn't that a concerning thing that we should be taking action on? And also a whole bunch of folks who actually aren’t involved in the medical care of trans people raising questions about whether adults like myself should be able to access gender affirming care and expanding that to then attack the rights of children. So, these are recycled. They, you know, publish a whole bunch of bunk studies, but journalists may not be aware that what they're actually responding to is disinformation. If you're not plugged into the kind of work that my organisation does or the kind of work that Sandy's organisation work counters, that actually looks at these myths and lies and how we can confront them and the kind of agenda behind them.

00:40:22:07 - 00:40:51:16 [Kate Doak] And that actually segues quite well into the next question that I have, which is in relation to a journalist that I was talking with a couple of weeks ago. They said to me that they really wanted to improve their engagement with the trans community and learn more about our community. However, with multiple academics now publishing conflicting papers on the trans community more broadly, but they didn't know who exactly to trust. What impact can misinformation from academic sources have? And is it similar to what was witnessed during the 1980s and 1990s at the height of the AIDS academic, epidemic, sorry.

00:40:51:18 - 00:41:27:02 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] I think some of it goes to the literacy of journalists and media and people in the media. I think there's a genuine problem in terms of their capacity to read some of these studies, because there aren't any legitimate studies that, that produce disinformation, that makes them not legitimate. In the context of Australia, we have something called the, the Guide to, sorry, it's just escaped my mind. It's around the kind of research that needs to happen. So it's, so it specifically defines what research is possible in the context of Australia. It's produced by the Federal Government, sorry, I should have that in my head. But it's, you know, one of the things that it does, it says, you don't target a specific group, you don't target a specific group with disinformation. So it specifically says, it's a non-maleficence clause, you know, so it specifically says you can't do that. So, you know, this is the, research framework, sorry, that's what it is, the research framework that all universities and all other research that's publicly funded needs to fit through the model of. That things are slipping through and then gaining traction is because they're outrageous, you know, because they're saying something that's counter. And it's a bit of the bothsidesism, but there's no bothsidesism when it comes to human rights, you know. And I'm reminded of, you know, I was on an amazing plenary with a bunch of, of two-spirit pediatricians last year, when I was in the US, and one of the things that, that came up and it was a really remarkable thing is that one of them is the director of a major children's hospital in the US, and their framing always is gender affirming care is primary care.

00:43:05:06 - 00:43:39:00 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] Now, what we need is out of this kind of disinfo, we need to have some new ways that journalists can kind of pick up a pithy line like that and go, right, yeah, it is primary care. Oh, yeah. Okay. You know, because the moment that you say it, gender affirming care is primary care, it becomes well, in what why isn't it, you know? And it becomes something that they can interrogate, you know, and they can interrogate it by looking at some of the ways that people are writing about this, and they can see that there are no surveys, Cass Review is not a survey. There are no surveys that legitimately counter the idea of, for instance, in this case, gender affirming care being primary care. The number one disinformation thing that happens for us, I think, is one of the things that journalists pick up on. So, again, it bridges the last question to this one. And that's we constantly get this idea that it's not cultural. So, and it's disinformation. There was, once upon a time I would have seen this as misinformation. But it's more than that. It's incredibly misleading. And it means that a number of, I won't say Aboriginal controlled health services because I think they’re all working towards a better understanding. But there are certainly individual actors across communities that are, that will frame the idea that this is some new thing, that it's kind of colonial incursion, that white people brought this idea of gender identity. It's nonsense. And we use Indigenous survivors as our model, which is if we exist now, we existed in the past and will exist in the future. And you're welcome. All trans people can use that. But also, we're not a proof of concept, but at the same time, we do exist, you know? And if we exist, you know, I'm not less Aboriginal because I'm trans. That's ridiculous. You know, and we know it's ridiculous. We have to counter it by, by saying it. We have to counter it by challenging it. This is ridiculous. So we have to sometimes voice this disinformation. And I don't think it's a mistake for journalists to voice the disinformation. I think it's a, it's a problem when they're not challenging it with something that is not causing harm, yeah.

00:45:22:05 - 00:45:56:11 [Kate Doak] Okay. A couple of years ago the ABC broadcasted are heartfelt and deeply insightful story on Dr Michelle Telfer by the show Australian Story, based on her work at the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne. While the story allowed the audience to take a walk in Dr Telford's shoes and those of the trans kids that she's helped, tellingly, the headline was, Treating Australia's trans kids made this doctor a target. So I'll ask, we know that trans people can be primary victims of transphobic related violence, but can our friends, families, colleagues and allies be secondary victims of it too?

00:45:56:13 - 00:46:30:15 [Jackson Fairchild] I... I might jump in there if that's okay, and just briefly say that we have interviewed now a large amount of both trans women and trans feminine people and men who date with, hook up with or attracted to trans women and trans feminine people. And we've discovered that they themselves experience an extraordinary impact of transphobia and transmisogyny that creates an awful lot of shame and stress for them, a lot of fear, it isolates them from their families and actually has a, you know, a really strong role in driving their use of creating tensions within their masculinity, I guess you could say, due to homophobia and transphobia around that and myths around what it means to be attracted to trans women. And it really has an important role to play in driving violence against trans women. And the things cannot be separated. But in talking to these men, we've realised that we can't just talk about the trans women in these relationships. We have to think of the whole social system around them. We need to think about the men that are dating them. We need to think about the men's friends and family that the homophobia and transphobia and the kind of discrimination, social rejection and in some instances cultural pressures create that mean that these relationships are kept secret, that trans women and trans feminine people are reduced to objects of fetishisation and sexualisation rather than as respected, and, you know, family members welcome as siblings, as siblings in law, and as parents. And it's, it has an enormous impact on everyone involved in that system, on the health and wellbeing and on their behaviour.

00:47:50:00 - 00:48:29:02 [Kate Doak] Okay.

00:48:29:04 - 00:48:51:18 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] Yeah. Sorry, I was just going to say I, I think this has been a core issue for the work that we've done with parents of gender diverse children. On the project, you know, we surveyed a couple of hundred, sorry, we had a couple of hundred people do our survey. We surveyed parents and caregivers of trans and gender diverse kids, and also mob with lived experience. And, so adults who had been trans, you know, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander kids at some stage. And they all talked about the same worries that we've talked about here. But a major issue was how, was talking to health care providers and health care providers had already engaged with them in some way, and that they had basically fobbed them off because they were worried about things. We heard from people who said that there's not enough people who are across gender affirming care, particularly in relation to preparation for surgery, But in other contexts as well. And, you know, again, we had adults who were being surveyed and they talked about the, you know, the lack of support. I mean, we know that it's, you know, it's only going down, I mean, look at the sheer volume of, of people that we have doing gender affirming surgery across Australia. And I had a very funny experience when I was at that plenary that I was talking about, which was an Indigenous Child Health plenary, and we were talking about gender affirming care there, and, you know, was there in the states, Kansas, Arkansas, in this case, Oklahoma and Texas at the time traveling through these states.

00:50:03:14 - 00:50:24:16 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] And there was a lot of rhetoric here about how this was really terrible. These places don't have gender affirming care. At the time before they change the laws, any one of those states had more people conducting surgery, and they were small states population wise, than this whole country, and we don't have knowledge of that. And again, this is what journalists need to understand. You know, jurisdictional it changes. But the impact for doctors and others who are doing this, and particularly, you know, you talked about one person who is an absolute expert across this. But many people who are doing this see this as one of the, one of the procedures that they, that they take on. Why would any surgeon take on that procedure now, you know, and we have to compel, we have to say, because it's primary care, we have to change some of the rules in Medicare. We have to do some of this work, but we have to talk to journalists and bring them onside with this, because this is how people hear about it.

00:50:55:14 - 00:51:25:06 [Jackson Fairchild] I might just follow on from that, Sandy and just say, look, we've seen when it's become a pile on issue and journalists have picked this, whether it's gender affirming care or social programs that work with young people in particular, the level of backlash and the role of the media that is an absolute core. Without the media printing and re-printing, aggressively investigating particular programs and individuals, cynically reinterpreting, in many cases wilfully, we're looking at not just a representation of the violence, but particular media outlets behaving in a violent manner themselves. And this is having an extraordinary material impact on individual lives, both for trans and gender diverse people and the people who are working in those programs, often trans and gender diverse themselves, But often our allies as well, who have been hounded, stalked, had their social media, you know, interrogated. The media themselves, there needs to be a higher standard of ethical practice and consequences for that kind of aggressive misrepresentation and social attack because of the material violation that that creates and the loss of life that it creates in our communities.

00:52:24:21 - 00:53:03:00 [Kate Doak] Okay then. Late last year, Myles Waring from the ABC asked Anton Enus from SBS, Patricia Karvelas from the ABC and myself about some of the challenges that we've experienced as LGBTQI+ people within the Australian and international media landscapes. Now, I described a number of like, negative influences and experiences that I'd experienced during that particular conversation, but I also referenced how life changing finding a supportive workplace had been for me both personally and professionally. Upon that story being published, I had a lot of people from both my own workplace and outside of it thank me for inadvertently encouraging them to be themselves and leading by example. So, putting media context aside for a moment, what are some of a positive influences that having a supportive workplace can have, not just for trans people, but for everyone around them, particularly when it comes to safety?

00:53:38:15 - 00:54:07:09 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] I think them, I think having a workplace that articulates it is really important, but also having one that understands the legal obligations is really important as well. And I think that can, there can be a mismatch with that. But yeah, I think it's incredibly important. And this was again, one of the bits of feedback that we got was a whole lot of, you know, remember we were talking to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander adults and parents and caregivers of, of kids. And one of the concerns was that they knew how to deal with diversity of identity when it came to race, or they knew how to think about cultural belonging, but they didn't know how to think about it in terms of gender. So, it existed there as a policy, but it wasn't really enacted. And, you know, so this kept coming back to us as, as a kind of crucial issue. And yet it's really hard to know what to do with that. What does it mean? I mean, it means that I can go out and say anything, but it also means, more importantly, I mean, I’m a professor at the end of my career, of course I can, but it means that young people coming through, being able to see people in senior roles, it means that they know that they can go further and not have to think about their, that aspect of their identity if they don't want to and to think about it, if they do, it doesn't have to be a factor. And yet it can continually is. So I'll use as an example, just to finish off. Sorry, I'm rambling. Just to finish off, you know, there's a major issue with people who are non-binary, people who are not women or men, and people who are agender, anybody outside of the binary, right, with programs of support. There's a lot of programs of support for women, for instance. And are they effective? Often not. And the reason that they’re there is because there's often a dearth. But I know across my industry, the academy, it's terrible. Like it's the place that shouldn't be terrible. But it is, you know, it's appalling.

00:55:53:11 - 00:56:22:24 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] So if you want to get ahead and you're a young non-binary person, good luck. Navigate. But you will come up against a lot more barriers than others do. And we see what happens all the time. And that's rather than expanding or understanding the issues, that, you know, the university will instead set up these kind of exceptions and exceptions are great, but they require somebody to have agency and to have sufficient power. And so what we most often see is people just falling away from, either their own identity, which is deeply problematic, or, they fall away from working in these spaces and they become, you know, untenable for them because it's just so, you know, so difficult in all the different ways. Sorry, difficult is a very light word. But, you know, this obviously is the core of who people are, rather than, you know, some accommodation that a university, for instance, in my case, makes. And so this is a big issue. I loved the fact that gender affirming care became a tenet of a couple of, well, one major supermarket last year that changed the landscape across a whole lot of places that thought they were better than supermarkets, you know? So I think understanding that and casting that out and not mitigating it, not, you know, controlling the narrative of we’ll do this, but not this, I think is a really important part of it.

00:57:24:23 - 00:57:45:12 [Kate Doak] Okay. It's said that trust is often a big part of safety. What are some steps that journalists and other media professionals can take to build relationships with the people that they are producing stories on, particularly amongst the trans community?

00:57:45:14 - 00:58:13:03 [Jackie Turner] Yeah, I can jump in here. I think, I've had a few really good relationships develop over the years. So I think, I've had a few, I've had a few journalists who have reached out to actually have a discussion about issues as they emerge. And like, I may not be the subject of the story, but they're reaching out to sort of gain a broader understanding of the issue at hand before they're writing the story, which, you know, I understand it's a fast paced environment, that may not always be possible. Wonderful when it is, especially on issues that keep coming up in the media, doing your research beforehand so that you know how you're going to deal with it, and have a nuanced understanding is wonderful. I know as well that, a lot of, when, sorry, when where in the sort of churn of a media cycle and there's an issue that has come up and we need direct response, sometimes I think there's an idea that to have balance in a story that you need to have the worst thing that, like anti-trans people have said in there to provide balance against what we have said. And actually, I think if you can find something that is less fringe there, that's actually more balanced because like we’re everyday people who are trying to defend ourselves often against hate groups, right? And so quoting the hate group and their opinions isn't really providing a sense of balance. I think as well, having an interest in the area.

00:59:20:16 - 00:59:45:05 [Jackie Turner] So there's a lot of information out there, obviously. There are folks that you can follow on social media to find out more about this, but just in a really top-level sense, there are guides like this now that people can read, print it off for your office, you know, have an hour long conversation about how you're going to deal with it in your next meeting or something like that, like incorporate this stuff into your work, and you should be doing this with resources as they come out, right? You know, Jackson mentioned before about the Pride In Prevention resource, that they released as well, like incorporating this stuff so that you're actually having a culture of learning so that people are reporting on, you know, a number of topics more responsibly would be wonderful

01:00:08:15 - 01:00:30:05 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] I think that issue of trusted sources is such a crucial one, you know, working out who those trusted sources are.I get this all the time that people will, you know, especially after the, after the very, sort of heavy duty anti-trans stuff I had in 2022 on social media, media will often, journalists will often come to me and say, and start off with this preamble. And they've not stopped since. And the preamble is, I know that you get targeted, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I know that you get, and, you know, I've said really publicly, I don't give a shit whether I get targeted, right? I just don't care. So, but what it does is it kind of, it's almost like a disclaimer on their behalf that or it can read like a disclaimer that things bad could happen, hope they don't, you know, that kind of thing. And it's, and it's like, no, that's not really a thing. You know, what you have to do is to not protect me because I don't care. Protect the, the integrity of the information, you know, protect kids, protect trans kids, you know, protect people who need that support and don't, it shouldn't be turned into someone who goes, oh, I'm okay. I don't care if I'm targeted. You know, that's very well for me. But also I have a lot of privilege in that space. And so recognising that rather than kind of going, oh, I can get a sound bite off Sandy, you know, or, you know, whatever. I think is a really important part of being able to know what those questions are.

01:01:35:21 - 01:01:55:19 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] I think that was what was so powerful about what Jackie just said is, you know, knowing the right questions is about looking at this material and really understanding it. And it's not like it, it doesn't really change, you know? I mean, I love that Our Watch has done this, but also I want to say there's actually a lot of guides out there that do this. There's a lot of good stuff out there. It's just one of the advantages of the Our Watch guide is it's right now and language does change. But there is this rhetoric around when things change, it's bad. I can tell you, as an Aboriginal person who's 58 years old, nobody put country affiliations on anything 35 years ago, we just didn't. Like, I wouldn't be turning up here and saying, I’m Wiradjuri, I'd be turning up saying, I'm Aboriginal because that was the language that we used at the time. It doesn't mean we weren't Wiradjuri, you know, it doesn't mean the, it doesn't mean any of that. But it does mean that language changes and the way that we are in good relations with one another changes to and with journalists we're in good relations with you, I always think about that because it's, our centre uses that as our basis. We're all in good relations with one another. You know, we have responsibilities to one another. And part of that I know for a lot of people who are worried about talking to journalists is when it's something that's in written form that they can send it back to the person and go, is this okay? That they can say, I'm thinking about using this quote, that if it's in another packaged media form that they could check that, that, that is okay, that it was what was intended.

01:03:13:01 - 01:03:38:06 [Kate Doak] Okay.

01:03:13:01 - 01:03:38:06 [Jackson Fairchild] I’ll just add one more thing to that, when a journalist is talking to me and they actually acknowledge the disinformation and acknowledge the, the, the broader context in the conversation and not just saying, oh, you know, this could have consequences for you, as Sandy said. But saying that, we’re aware that poor reporting on this could cause harm. We're aware that the media has had a fraught history in this space, and we want to make sure we get this one right. We've got these guidelines, but we'd love to hear from you not just on the content but on how to approach this. That to me, I've had one journalist speak to me that way, and it was a, I was ready to say no. And then I was turned around in the course of the conversation, because I've been burned so many times, and my colleagues had as well. I, I felt like that person, she was coming to me in good faith and, and willing to acknowledge that reporting on the issue wasn't just important, but reporting on, the community itself was experiencing an attack on truth and an attack on our reality and that there was a hate movement active in this space, changed the conversation for me quite dramatically, and helped make me feel like I was able to trust her.

01:04:38:24 - 01:05:07:11 [Kate Doak] Okay, then. The LGBTIQ+ community has a wide variety of cultural practices, worldviews, and values present within it. Firstly, what does cultural safety mean for the trans community? And secondly, just how important is it to the creation of an environment free from violence for trans and gender diverse people?

01:05:07:13 - 01:05:39:09 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] I think safety is important for everyone. Cultural safety is a little different. So, you know, personal safety is different than cultural safety. And personal safety extends to people attacking in written form, you know, so that's safety. That's not cultural safety. That's just fundamental safety. So cultural safety is really interesting. That's something that's much more about building, that's much more about the idea that, that stuff about inclusion, you know. So, I assume that if there's any kind of, you know, Aboriginal women's groups that that just automatically includes trans women. I assume that. And, you know, I assume that if there's, you know, if somehow people are excluded from some of these spaces because maybe they're non-binary, that there will be something that's done to support inclusion. So that's kind of cultural safety. That's inclusion. It's kind of, you know, I know I'm didactically talking about culture as, you know, as cultural, but it is that too, you know. But this notion of us all having the same views is incredibly problematic. You know, the notion that I think about cultural safety of, of queer people, as though that I'm part of a group called queer people isn't really a thing, you know. I mean, it's the same kind of in terms of Aboriginal people, though I probably would say that I do belong to that group. But, you know, this is, I think part of it is this idea of inclusion and exclusion, and it's this and we have to understand it because if we don't, then we do become spokespeople or something, or we become, you know, we see this as, why did those people let us down, you know, why is this LGB business happening? And the answer is, there's people who want to exclude and there's people who want to make spaces unsafe. But I don't think that's cultural safety. I think that's literally making it an unsafe place. Disinformation is not an issue of cultural safety. It's an issue of safety. And so how do you make spaces safe? By not excluding [laughs] not even by including but just by not excluding all of the things that that means, and by understanding the complexity of identity that we all share, all of us, whether part of that community, whether part of the Aboriginal community or the, the, the broader community, so.

01:07:47:21 - 01:08:11:19 [Jackson Fairchild] Sandy, can I just say how much I loved what you just said? And the way you describe the difference between cultural and personal safety. We've been talking about LGBTIQ cultural safety for years and we helped work on the last edition of The Rainbow Tick. And, yeah, that's just such a beautiful description and that it is more than just individual issues. It's about what happens in response to issues and what's the understanding and the commitment in the space to changing and growing and learning. Yeah, so, I just wanted to thank you for sharing that.

01:08:24:09 - 01:08:25:22 [Kate Doak] Thank you for a very, very engaging session, each of our panellists. And before we go, I'll ask for some closing comments. Though if we can just keep them brief, it would be greatly appreciated. So, Jackie, we'll go with you first.

01:08:42:17 - 01:08:59:06 [Jackie Turner] Great. Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to be a part of this project. And, yeah, I hope people find these guidelines really useful. And, definitely keen to keep talking about how we confront disinformation in this space.

01:08:59:12 - 01:09:23:05 [Kate Doak] Okay. And next is Sandy.

01:08:59:12 - 01:09:23:05 [Professor Sandy O’Sullivan] Yeah, I think for me, it's just, you know, journalists keep on top of this, you know, talk to people who are trans and gender diverse, talk to people who are researchers across this, but also who are policy and advocacy groups across this, make us do research, make us do work for you. You know, we can be compelled by requests from the media. So do that, have relationships with us, not extractive conversations.

01:09:36:21 - 01:09:57:09 [Kate Doak] And finally, Jackson.

01:09:36:21 - 01:09:57:09 [Jackson Fairchild] Yeah, I'm just so excited to have these guidelines out in the world. And, you know, in prevention land, we use all this technical language. But one of the terms we talk about is settings, and, media is just one of the most important settings. And we know that change in this space is going to have a transformative impact. So if you can tell three of your mates about this and tell them to tell three of them and so on, that would be really great because, we really need this kind of action to go as viral as the hate and abuse that we've been enduring in recent days.

01:10:10:11 - 01:10:16:21 [Kate Doak] Okay. And on that note, we would like to thank everyone for attending today, and for engaging with the panel so far. And also to each and every one of our panellists and also, our other key speakers, excuse me, such as, such as Anna. So, we'll now go to accessing support. As you can see on the screen here, there are different support numbers that you can contact. We encourage you to make use of those different resources if you feel the need to. And to make use of this resource, it's there to be used and it can have such a huge difference. And reach out to Our Watch, they are there to help.